Enlightenment, Reality, Hallucination
Interview with Oshana
Private meeting 13 Oct 2002
The interviewer, A., was a serious practitioner of Korean Zen, and reader of Advaita Vedanta and Ken Wilber before meeting Oshana. Kindly he reproduces from memory notes of his meeting with Oshana on 13 Oct 2002. English is not his mother language - a few minor corrections have been made [extra notes were added 26 Nov 2002]. We encourage all Enlightenment Potentials to share notes of their meetings with Oshana as such information is rarely heard twice and of great value to all.
The reader may be surprised to hear Oshana talk about re-incarnation and past lives. While it
is not a major part of Oshana's teaching, it is none the less, part of Life.
Q: How are you Oshana?
D: I am the same &.
It's the world that is changing, and I am observing that change.
I am trying to verbally communicate about The Energy [of Enlightenment] that seeks to come into to manifestation through me and others [onto the planet].
The odds are that the human race will destroy itself, and I am trying very hard to change human society [energetically] so that can be avoided.
We are currently witnessing an unprecedented phenomenon in human history, namely that many people are becoming [or could become] enlightened and we don't know for sure what is the reason for that or what are its consequences. It is not that rare [it is still rare but not impossible] nowadays to find enlightened people.
[Note: It's less rare to find Awakened people. Oshana has been progressively making finer and finer distinctions between Awakening and Enlightenment. Suffice to say they are not the same.
In the summer of 2002 Oshana met two people who seemed to be awake. The first he considered very awake. The second he felt could be awake. Neither are teachers, though they had had teachers.]
Maybe the reason is to balance the self-destructive tendencies in the human society.
[Oshana pointed out that this was speculation. He always differentiates speculation from real observation. Oshana has given an alternative explanation recently: that the mind's of men create disturbances when The Light comes into the world.]
This is something new and contrary to what the traditional scriptures say about Enlightenment.
[The scriptures seem to suggest, interpretations vary, that only one or two enlightened people could be on the planet at the same time. Oshana does not believe that that is has to be the case.]
You don't know how this phenomenon is going to develop. Obviously, I cannot meet the six billion people one at a time. But people I interact with receive different degrees of transmission at any particular moment. While they interact, in their turn, with other people and in this way the Transmission is transferred. The forms of that vary largely, ranging from teaching to engaging in active dialogue to offering a smile.
Always indicating [?] that Life could be lived otherwise, that the world could be a better place, that happiness is possible. That's why I call upon people, in general, to do some service work. When you do service, then you become a vehicle through which The Energy circulates.
At first, it comes drop by drop, then like rushing like water from a tap, then pouring like the rain, then like running like a river, then magnificently like the ocean, and then the whole universe is coursing through you.
[When the sum total energy of the Universe is rushing through you, then the False Identity, the spiritual ego, has nowhere to lodge itself. It becomes like a rat in a sewer, unable to cling to the walls, it gets flushed out to sea.]
For that to happen, It should be allowed to come through continuously. Energy will choose the vehicle that will serve it most. Because It is unselfish It will choose a unselfish vehicle. We actually don't know who It will choose but you can improve your chances.
Be warned: you don't know if you can get Transmission in the future. You have searched for lifetimes for an Enlightened Teacher and that Teacher could move on or may die anytime.
[Oshana pretends to collapse over the cafe table]
Satsang audiences, consisting mainly from white middle class [in the West], are generally concerned with their own personal problems and with improving their lives (career, mortgage, relationships, etc.). They are not sufficiently empty [or free of selfish pre-occupations] for The Source to act through them.
So, you ask "How am I"?
This is how I am : still the same: trying to transmit this tremendous Energy and confronted with the limitations of this world. Because this Energy, when It enters the world, has to adapt to this world's laws.
If the Creation destroys itself, I may get a holiday for ten billion years. Well, time doesn't exist, but it may take ten billion years, yet!
[It's not clear here if Oshana actually spoke of the Earth getting destroyed by the actions of men which could happen at anytime or of the physical universe contracting which will not happen for many millennia as it is currently expanding.]
Q: You speak about coming back, in a future reincarnation, with such certainty; did this knowledge come to you with Enlightenment?
D: Do you want to speak about past lives?
It is not an easy question [to answer in terms that you can understand unless] you experience, first, who I am.
I am completely here in the present moment.
[This is a fact. So where are the past lives?]
Look: this cup is here now.
But if you tell me it was here a moment before, I would take this as hallucination. For me memory is literally an hallucination. This cup is not solid as it seems to be. It gets continuously re-created moment to moment. The memory of a past moment is nothing but an hallucination.
[Oshana is making one of his classic distinctions between fact and interpretation. "Always go to the facts first" he says.]
On the other hand, nothing is ever created [or uncreated?]. Since it is there now then it must have been here before. In this way, you can see past lives.
[That means that past lives are here and now, but past memories are an hallucination. Recently Oshana has made a distinction between Intellectual Memory, which is symbolic, limited and fictitious, and Energetic Memory which is more accurate and eternal (what has been called the Akashic Records)]
Q: I am referring to future lives. Can you explain that in the same way you explained past memories?
D: Let's say that the physical body is this cup.
Above it, there is this [picks up a menu and places it above the cup] and above that is the Source.
When death happens, the body degenerates into its constituent elements. The Source [of Awareness] flies away. It is impersonal.
Now, we can speak about the attributes of the Source. It is colourless, tasteless, and although it is unmanifest, we can say also that It is full of potential. But the fact that It will re-manifest, or, in this case, re-incarnate, won't help us in dealing with the question you ask [because the Source has no past life because it is Unmanifest - only that which is in manifestation can have past lives].
We are left, then, with the intermediate realm between the physical body and the Source. This is constituted by many levels, successively ascending, namely the emotional, the intellectual, the intuitional and the psychical [and many more levels that have never been named - the interviewer is unsure of what was also recounted at this point].
Upon death, these levels become divided into two major groupings.
The lower one (the emotional and the intellectual) will die with the physical body. The second [upper] one (the intuitional and the psychical), in case it feels that it didn't learn enough, will seek another human body to continue its task.
[Oshana often makes the movement of a hand-grabbing the head when talking of this process of acquiring a body. It's not clear here if any part of the Mind plays a role in in this process. Recently, Oshana has taught that the Mind is an invisible intelligent energetic entity which feeds on the human life-force. It could be that it forces the 'soul' to reincarnate. As Oshana says these matters are never as simple as they are typically portrayed..]
That's why the human body is needed. But note that whilst some suggest that the human body is given in order to attain Enlightenment, [some also say that it prevents Enlightenment] I say on the contrary, that we incarnate to seemingly avoid Enlightenment.
[Oshana speculates that we are on a grand vacation from the Unmanifested Oneness because although it is full of potential nothing ever happens there! If we knew that we were immortal and eternal then we could not fully play The Game of Life, so we buy into the Illusion by forgetting that we are One.
This theory of Divine Amnesia has been question by Oshana. (He says that we should have a maximally open mind to prevent the False Identity from crystallising).
Recently, Oshana has pointed to the three inner developments that all incarnations can achieve but very few do. In fact, he seems to be suggesting that the potential of an incarnation is self-awareness, psychic abilities and an active compassionate mission this sounds like Enlightenment.
If this is the case then it could follow that we may not have come here to escape Oneness, or that we chose to forget Oneness, but that for some unknown reason some agency intervened. This, of course, is speculation but something to be investigated. ]
The body is nevertheless necessary for the further development of the intuitional and the psychical levels.
[The physical body is like the roots of a tree that feeds the branches, leaves and fruits.]
Now, those who find a human body and reincarnate continue learning. Eventually, when Enlightenment it brings something new which does not follow Laws of Nature. We know that nothing disappears. But with Enlightenment the false sense of self disappears completely.
[Enlightenment is outside the Laws of Nature, specifically the Laws of Thermodynamics, which state that nothing in the Universe can be created or destroyed. Yet, miraculously a major shift in perception happens at Enlightenment and it seems that the False Identity disappears.
Indeed, Oshana once described the impact of one person waking up upon the energy of the room as like a a nuclear bomb going off in the living room. ]
Q: Were you enlightened in your previous lives?
D: Well, I keep wondering why did I begin to learn yoga when I was five?
Some friends with psychic abilities have told me that, in one of my past lives, (maybe the last one) I belonged to an Enlightenment school in Atlantis.
Q: Is that why you keep speaking about the possibility of the human race to destroy itself or the creation?
D: Maybe. I only now notice that link.
In Atlantis, this Enlightenment school was teaching fast Enlightenment. I got burned out in the process [meaning he died]. I get emotional when I speak about this, as you can see. (There are tear-drops in Oshana's eyes and goose-bumps on his arms.)
[The psychics suggested that this is why Oshana is in a hurry to get people Enlightened. It also may explain why he is incredibly gentle.]
You know, I am hearing this answer for the first time, as you do.
You see, Source is not selfish. It doesn't teach me individually. It is when someone asks me something that It's teaching comes, to teach me as well as the person who is asking me.
I am hearing this answer for the first time.
[The interview notes end here but the timeless interview still continues in some cafe, somewhere in the Universe. We thank A. for making himself available to The Energy and sharing with us]
Would you like to share about your learning experiences with Oshana?