Here We Gyan Again!
[Oshana] Hi David-dsirju,
I'd like you to elucidate some points.
1. Why did you search in the first place?
I would agree that enlightenment as it has been described could be a fictitious state. But having given up the search and then finding it without looking for it - I am inclined to say it exists.
I comment in the body of the text below.
[David-dsirju] Hi Folks,
I'm new to your forum and though I don't speak much about myself for courtesy I'd say - my name is David and I reside and work in the Caribbean, as an engineer. I spent much of my earlier life enquiring about life's meaning, reading some books, meeting teachers and so on, till not finding adequate answers "out there" the search came to a halt and my life became entirely functional.
My comment today is from https://groups.yahoo.com/group/oshana/message/11 Ego is Identification - Forget the Concept.
In it Oshana wrote :
"The focus is on getting the enquirer to see, as quickly as possible, "Who am I", or put another way, to dis-identify with who they thought they were."[cut]
"There is no transcendence. You don't go anywhere. You only cease to identify with the false identity. It happens naturally. You don't even need to have a concept about what will happen. In the Dialogue you just look, i.e. see what is there."
May I ask who is the one that is trying to see "who am I" ?
[Oshana] There is no trying to see anything- there is only looking. You can look from your identity and it will be bewildered and may capitulate. You can look from Consciousness and you will be Home and realise all else is fictitious.
[David-dsirju] Who is trying to dis-identify with whom?
[Oshana] It happens naturally. There is no effort or presupposition - you just look - this was said in the quote.
[David-dsirju] Who is looking to see what's there ?
[Oshana] Either Consciousness or identity. Consciousness is the best place to be.
[David-dsirju] Isn't the one who is trying to dis-identify with the false identity, identical to the very same false identity; playing games with itself, splitting itself into two thought-induced states, a seer and a seen, caught in an infinite regression loop, the dog chasing it's own tail, the child chasing its own shadow ?
[Oshana] Quite often, yes.
[David-dsirju] The "me" is the I-thought. How can the I-thought look at thoughts, when it is itself a thought ?
[Oshana] This isn't my language. Only Consciousness can directly look as it has the light- it is like the sun- the identity gets the reflected light, and so it's perception can be distorted.
[David-dsirju] Really what is seen is "about" thoughts, our past knowlege about thoughts, stored in memory.
[Oshana] What is verbally communicated comes through thoughts. But what is behind the thoughts?
[David-dsirju] As far as I'm concerned : the false identity, the "me", cannot dis-identify, let go or get rid of the false entity (itself) by it own (false) self !
[Oshana] That would be true if it took itself seriously but what if it doubted itself?
[David-dsirju] This becomes the frustration of all seekers of this jnana-knowledge path.
[Oshana] Does it?
[David-dsirju] The Katha Upanishad is very clear on this point: a rough translation-
" Not by understanding, seeing, reading, listening to discourses, debating, performing various disciplines or any related activities, but to whom the Self chooses it reveals Itself". In fact this "me-entity" has no intention to dissolve itself but rather is interested in preserving, protecting itself, erecting more fortresses, deluding itself infinitely with entertaining games. The objects of search, for example, spiritual knowledge, answers ect. is just another game of defending itself, perpetuating itself. The occurence is always acausal. You just have to be lucky my friends!
[Oshana] And where does luck come from?
[David-dsirju] You can try all the meditations methods, from J. Krishnamurti's techniques of self-observation, Ramana's "Who am I", Osho's awareness, Buddhist Vipassana, do all the sadhanas prescribed by the Masters, but if I may add the rider - you will never get "there", to your ficticious state of enlightenment. These gurus, custodians of the holy-business have not only taken you for a ride, but taken away your hard earned cash. So here we are - the whole house of cards collapses!
[Source: Oshana Mailing List]